Global Jihad: Interview with Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo
Speaking right after his presentation [at the CounterJihad Summit Brussels October 2007], Dr.Patrick Sookhdeo was interviewed by Pamela Geller. He spoke about the 1979 Arab Euro conference,
Dr.Sookhdeo: "in which it was decided that Muslims should not integrate as individuals in society, but as communities. So they emphasized the development of Muslim communities, in other words they would become majorities in given areas, and then they would go to the next stage, which was to engage the political bodies in that area.
If you had to deduce their strategy, over the past thirty years, it would be first the creation an Islamic consciousness, in other words the women wear hijab, everyone eats halal meat, those very basic things that give visibility to the Muslim community, they know who they are, and their sharia, their law becomes operative.
And secondly, to create organizations within institutions, for example, the Islamic Women's society, an Islamic Leaders society, an Islamic Education society. Now, each of those societies sits down and works out its principles. It says what are our objectives, where do we want to go, how are we going to get there? How does Islam fit within this, and how does our law come in?
Once they have that in place, they move to the third stage, which is to say to their local authority, ' that we have got lots of Muslim children in school, should not the school cater for our children, in terms of dress, in terms of Ramadan, in terms of food, in terms of education'? That say politically that, 'we are here, shouldn't we be a part of everything'?
So what has happened as they have engaged the political structures at the local (unclear) national level so now that Islam has been accepted and brought into the center.
Dr.Sookhdeo: But that engaging has also had to with the media, social, cultural, religious bodies.
Pamela: All operating in tandem.
Dr.Sookhdeo: Yes, all operating in tandem, so their persons must now that it was felt. And then there is the final stage that is set. 'If you don't give way to what we want, then we aren't to blame if you are attacked. Now in England we have had our 7/7. An extremist Muslim came out and said that, "it's really the British government's policy is to blame because we are in Iraq killing Muslims, you can't blame our young people", in other words they're saying to government, "you've got to follow out foreign policy, we will tell you what to do."
So you've got a fourth stage, which is where violence is (unclear) or utilized.
Pamela: Now in America this is starting to happen, I'm on the "Stop the Madrassa Coalition" there this school in Brooklyn, an Arabic school, we're trying to stop it, but it's certainly not the first, and I can see in the UK they have been very successful, have they not? Are there great many Muslim schools, public schools?
Dr.Sookhdeo: Very much so, and in fact the worrying feature is that our present Labour government has decided to fund at least 1oo Muslim schools. So you had independent Muslim schools that's outside the state sector, self funding, and the government is now saying well, that we need to now fund them into the state sector as Muslim schools, which I think is an unwise decision, eh to take.
Pamela: And what do you think that the next step is in the UK, what happens next?
Dr.Sookhdeo: I think the worrying factor is how far these communities are going to go, in terms of some kind of autonomy. If they form majorities within given geographical areas, and that is already happening, (Pamela: it is happening) and if non-Muslims are being pushed out, if they create their own institutions which they've done, if they're are able to Islamicize police forces which they have done and capture political power. At what point do they say that these areas are now Muslims are now going to be under sharia, and we will determine who comes in, what can take place within.
Let me give you two illustrations. Dogs. Muslims of Coventry saying that Hadith traditions are saying that dogs are unclean, should not be in these areas. so what happens if you have a dog? Another is alcohol. What happens if you have a taxi driver who is a Muslim, and he picks up somebody and asks to go to an alcohol shop, does that mean that those will have to close down? Or advertising. One may not like some advertising, they advertise beer or scantily clad ladies, but should they all be removed?
So it has huge impact on what happens within a community. My concern for the States, is not just that Madrassas are developing, but actually Islamic communities of the type we have seen developing inside the UK.
Pamela: Like Dearbornistan.
Dr.Sookhdeo: Yes that is happening inside the States.
Pamela: If George Bush could have done something different after 9/11, did he do something that you would have done differently? Done better, more effectively, or is this just a runaway train?
Dr.Sookhdeo: I think that Mr.Bush's strategy, and I doubt that any other incumbent would have done it differently, was the right one, because they have to safeguard the American people. That was the priority, and it meant that they had to develop homeland security for the first time to join up all the dots and making sure that all of the security agencies are all working properly. Good immigration laws, and a much greater emphasis on counter terrorism. I personally believe that he did the right thing.
And secondly, I do believe that he had to go after the perpetrators, and so..it was right. The Taliban, Al-Qaida was a (unclear) in their back yard, and I don't see where Mr.Bush could be faulted, and any other incumbent wouldn't have done the same.
Pamela: Uh, do you think that the train has left the station?
Dr.Sokhdeo: I think that in the UK, I think it has. because the Muslim community has been allowed to develop in such a way, that it's going to be very difficult to for outsiders to influence it. But it could be influenced from within, it would mean that the Muslim community leaders standing up and saying , "look we want to come back into the station, we want to be a part of life". That's a decision that they have got to take, but if they continue to preach, separation, the development of a parallel society of the old Indian version of communalism, then I think that it's going to be very very difficult to see a way ahead.
Pamela: Why would they back pedal when they have been so successful, I mean I don't understand what would be the objective, their achieving their objectives this way?
Dr.Sookhdeo: I believe that if you are not happy, there are some young professionals who have embraced western values, particularly religion and state, internal private law rather than public, they appreciate a western liberal society, I think people like that obviously do not want an Islamic state.
I think there are some Muslim leaders, who are now sitting down and thinking and saying look, we have fled rigid societies, do we want to replicate these societies here? Is it possible for Islam to adjust, to a contemporary western society? So I think that we've got those thinkers. The real dilemma is, the communities are concervative, by nature even though they are traditionalists, their leadership actually tends to be more of a hardline. The Jamat, the Muslim Brotherhood.
Their leaders actually say well, 'we got want we wanted, and it's taking us where we want, and more than that, western society and British society is so secular, so corrupt, we don't want that, we want our children and families to grow up in our own communities, with our own religion and with our own law. In other words, we want a Muslim street. And that is where the tension is going to be.
Pamela: And this Muslim street, do you think that it'll welcome Christians, Jews and infidels? It's not in the book... Patrick.
Dr.Sookhdeo: Well thus far, in the UK, they're saying that they don't want them, because we have had evidince of people being pushed out of those areas of conflict and violence, and the Muslim street, being deemed their Muslim street is under sharia, otherwise they are going to create zones in which non-Muslims are not going to be allowed into.
Pamela: Your feelings on Turkey entering into the EU, have you any thoughts on that?
Dr.Sookhdeo: Very much so, I think that Turkey is a member of NATO and a very valued member, I can see a place where Turkey in terms of economics and trade can have a relationship with the European Union, but I think for Turkey to become a full member of the European Union would pose real challenges to Europe. The size of the Turkish population by 2020, it could be up to 100 million, that's a quarter of Europe, would then be an Islamic Muslim position.
The present government is moving away from the secular state, and is moving towards an Islamist state. Europe, if they weakened in terms of its foundations, its Judeo/Christian basis (Pamela: would be so easy to infiltrate), precisely. So I would be uneasy with a fully intergrated Turkey into the European Union because I believe that it could pose real difficulties for Europe, for the future, and if, there are those who have suggested that if Europe (means Turkey) enters into the European Union by 2020, Europe could have as much as 45 percent Muslim and begins to pose real difficulties for a country that would be shaped by Islam.
Pamela: And in regards to the Global jihad, by the way I just purchased your book the Global Jihad, is that available yet, is that on Amazon yet?
Dr.Sookhdeo: It is on Amazon and will be published in the US next month
Pamela: OK, I hope that you'll maybe do a show with us when that book will come out and we'll sell some books.
Dr.Sookhdeo: Thank you.
Pamela: How did Israel fail, most assuredly failed, not always, not through industry, you have to see the current leadership as weak, what would you have done differently, if you were advising?
Dr.Sookhdeo: I think that you mean in the context of Hizbullah, I think that if one is going to go to war, then one needs to decide to pursue it absolutely, or not at all. I think secondly, there's a temptation now to use air power, because no one wants more body bags, and air power by itself is not sufficient.
I think thirdly, the issue of ground troops was very significant and how far they would move, but I think more than that, Israel underestimated the fighting capabilities of Hizbullah. And I think she will need to take seriously an irregular force fighting asymmetrically, and she will have to look at how she can engage in that, particularly if air power takes out buildings from which eh., insurgents can fight bombs. So I think that the whole strategy needs to be relooked.
Pamela: Well thank you very much, and good luck.
Dr.Sookhdeo: Well thank you so much too.